The Emerson Avenger

The Emerson Avenger is a "memory hole" free blog where censorship is scorned. This blog will "guard the right to know" about any injustices and abuses that corrupt Unitarian Universalism. Posters may speak and argue freely, according to conscience, about any injustices and abuses, or indeed hypocrisy, that they may know about so that the Avenger, in the form of justice and redress, may come surely and swiftly. . . "Slowly, slowly the Avenger comes, but comes surely." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada

In 1992 I underwent a profound revelatory experience of God which revealed that the total solar eclipse "Eye of God" is a "Sign in the Heavens" that symbolizes God's divine omniscience. You may read about what Rev. Ray Drennan of the Unitarian Church of Montreal contemptuously dismissed as my "psychotic experience" here: http://revelationisnotsealed.homestead.com - This revelatory religious experience inspired me to propose an inter-religious celebration of Creation that would take place whenever a total solar eclipse took place over our planet. You may read about what Rev. Ray Drennan and other leading members of the Unitarian Church of Montreal falsely and maliciously labeled as a "cult" here: http://creationday.homestead.com - I am now an excommunicated Unitarian whose "alternative spiritual practice" includes publicly exposing and denouncing Unitarian*Universalist injustices, abuses, and hypocrisy. The Emerson Avenger blog will serve that purpose for me and hopefully others will share their concerns here. Dee Miller's term DIM Thinking is used frequently and appropriately on this blog. You may read more about what DIM Thinking is here - http://www.takecourage.org/defining.htm

Saturday, June 20, 2009

Conservative U*U Joel Monka's Boneheadedly Stupid, Callously Dismissive, And Really Quite Thoughtless Thoughts About The Riots In Iran. . .

Just saying as they say. . .

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25 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Just what is the whole point of this comment? If you don't like what he has to say, why even provide him the publicity.

Sunday, June 21, 2009 2:25:00 pm  
Blogger Robin Edgar said...

The simple answer to your questions is that publicizing aka exposing and denouncing U*U injustices, abuses, hypocrisy and indeed boneheadedly stupid things that foolish U*Us say and/or do is the main purpose of this blog. . .

Sunday, June 21, 2009 2:54:00 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

injustices, abuses, hypocrisy
injustices, abuses, hypocrisy
injustices, abuses, hypocrisy
injustices, abuses, hypocrisy
injustices, abuses, hypocrisy

ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

So whenever one UU says something which you think is "boneheadedly stupid", that is an excuse for you to go off on yet another useless rant on what you apparently think of all UUs??

Again, what does this accomplish?

I've asked this before, and I'll ask it again: Name one constructive change which you can credit to your efforts.

Still waiting for an answer ... but not holding my breath.

Sunday, June 21, 2009 3:02:00 pm  
Blogger Robin Edgar said...

It's not my fault if U*U repeatedly pass me "ammunition" in the form of various injustices, abuses and hypocrisy ad infinitum, and indeed ad nauseum oh so anonymous one.

:So whenever one UU says something which you think is "boneheadedly stupid", that is an excuse for you to go off on yet another useless rant on what you apparently think of all UUs??

Not at all. I am clearly criticizing Joel Monka and only Joel Monka in this particular blog post. In fact other U*Us criticized his boneheadedly stupid blog post on the situation in Iran by posting comments to it but, since Joel Monka suppresses all of my comments I decided to post my criticism here.

:Again, what does this accomplish?

Hopefully it makes U*Us think twice before saying and doing stupid and harmful things. It also warns the public that U*Us are no better at practicing what they preach than the members of other religions and may even be less ready, willing and able to walk what they talk in some ways.

:I've asked this before, and I'll ask it again: Name one constructive change which you can credit to your efforts.

Well for starters I haven't seen Peacebang aka Rev. Victoria Weinstein go out of her way to insult and defame anyone for a couple of months now. Various other U*Us ministers have toned down their hypocritical rhetoric once they have had a run in with The Emerson Avenger although some like Peacebang and Rev. Dr. Timothy W. Jensen aka Rev. StinkyVestments seem to be remarkably slow learners. . . Of course I am still waiting for the UUA and Unitarian Chujrch of Montreal to respond in a constructive manner to my legitimate criticism and dissent. When they finally get around to doing so I think that I will be able to claim some very constructive results. That being said I believe that it is in fact "constructive" to expose and denounce injustices, abuses, and hypocrisy of all kinds even if the perpetrators and perpetuators of whatever injustices and abuses one is exposing and denouncing never accept responsibility for their wrongful and harmful actions. Much of my protest is simply intended to warn the public that Unitarian*Universalists do a rather poor job of genuinely honoring and upholding their purported principles and purposes.

Sunday, June 21, 2009 7:08:00 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sorry, but I wouldn't refer to any of these as "accomplishments" ... especially if you read the chatter that has been going on.

I read the comments in reply to Joel Monka - two of them, and certainly more constructive than your name-calling.

And as for claiming that it's not your fault ... What others say and do is on them, and what you say and do is on you. Ranting and raving and calling people names is your problem, and cannot be excused by their prior behavior.

I've been reading your blogs, and your comments on other people's blogs. All of this seems to have started because one minister at one church said something negative about your experience. That minister apologized, more than once, and left the congregation, but you refused to accept his apology and continued to crusade to get the congregation to embrace your proposal. They kept turning you down, and when you refused to take no for an answer, kept pushing and pushing until they suspended you twice and finally threw you out. And still you don't quit - you picket them, harangue them, try to drag other Unitarian Universalists into the quarrel and then attack them when they won't go along.

In short ... all your talk about "injustices, abuses and hypocrisy" is rooted in your own personal grudge. For seventeen years!

And to top it all off? You hijack other people's discussions, call people names like "boneheadedly stupid" and "stinky vestments", and try to claim that your behavior is "their" fault.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

Guess what? When people are not complaining about your outrageous behavior, they are either pitying you or laughing at you. Go do all that searching you're so fond of doing, and read what people are really saying about you.

Given all of that, I'd reckon that any changes in UU behavior occurred in spite of your actions, not because of it.

Sunday, June 21, 2009 9:33:00 pm  
Blogger Robin Edgar said...

:Sorry, but I wouldn't refer to any of these as "accomplishments" ... especially if you read the chatter that has been going on.

That's your problem not mine oh so anonymous one. I would say that getting Rev. Victoria Weinstein to stop insulting and defaming people for even a few weeks is something of an "accomplishment" considering just how prone she was to insulting and defaming people on her Peacebang blog she was. . .

:I read the comments in reply to Joel Monka - two of them, and certainly more constructive than your name-calling.
his
I wasn't trying to be particularly "constructive" in my criticism of Joel. I was just showing up his foolishness. Joel has insulted and defamed me recently so I felt no need to be particularly polite in pointing out the stupidity of his callously dismissive post about events in Iran.

:And as for claiming that it's not your fault ...

I said that U*U injustices, abuses and hypocrisy are not my fault and I am right about that.

:What others say and do is on them, and what you say and do is on you.

Correct, and that is why I have no qualms about attaching my real name to my words which is more than can be said about you. . . I am quite happy to "own" my own words and actions.

:Ranting and raving and calling people names is your problem, and cannot be excused by their prior behavior.

Actually it can. I have repeatedly warned U*Us that if they engage in insults, name-calling, and verbal abuse etc. that I reserve the right to return the favor. I do this primarily to discourage them from continuing in their bad behavior and it often works like a charm although there are a few slow learners as I have already said. The fact of the matter is that I get along just fine with most U*Us who do not engage in insults, name-calling, and verbal abuse.

:I've been reading your blogs, and your comments on other people's blogs. All of this seems to have started because one minister at one church said something negative about your experience.

Actually there were some incidents involving other intolerant U*Us well before that incident but Rev. Ray Drennan's insulting and defamatory attack on me certainly was the catalyst for future events.

:That minister apologized, more than once, and left the congregation, but you refused to accept his apology and continued to crusade to get the congregation to embrace your proposal.

I refused to accept Rev. Ray Drennan's too little too late sorry excuse for an apology because, besides being more than a year late. . . it was definitely far from adequate and almost certainly insincere. In fact Drennan's so-called apology made it clear that he stood by his "position" that I was psychotic and Creation Day was a cult. Rev. Drennan's alleged "apology" was actually a veiled insult in and of itself in that it effectively repeated the insults and defamation he was supposed to be apologizing for. Nobody is obliged to accept an inadequate or insincere apology. For the record he only apologized once and he obstinately refused to provide an adequate apology that clearly and unequivocally retracted his insulting and defamatory words even though I gave him plenty of opportunity to do so.

Sunday, June 21, 2009 11:37:00 pm  
Blogger Robin Edgar said...

:They kept turning you down, and when you refused to take no for an answer, kept pushing and pushing until they suspended you twice and finally threw you out.

You don't know what you are talking about. I was initially suspended for a full six months in the spring of 1997 for writing the important letter of grievance that informed the UCM's Board that Rev. Ray Drennan had delivered an unacceptable apology and asked them to take steps to ensure that he delivered an apology that I could honorably accept so that we could put the conflict behind us and move towards genuine reconciliation. I took that pill and when I returned made it clear to the Board and congregation that the conflict remained unresolved. When after a few months it became clear that nobody was going to do anything to redress my grievances I began the public protest that I had warned the church that I would undertake if it did nothing to redress my legitimate grievances. I expected the church to come to its senses within a few weeks but instead it chose to temporarily expel me again in a manner that disregarded and violated its own bylaws. . .

:And still you don't quit - you picket them, harangue them, try to drag other Unitarian Universalists into the quarrel and then attack them when they won't go along.

Why should I quit? I have legitimate grievances that have yet to be redressed with anything even remotely resembling genuine justice, equity and compassion. Au contraire U*Us have repeatedly aggravated and escalated this conflict with their unjust punitive expulsions and other misguided attempts to silence my legitimate criticism and dissent. U*Us who turn blind eyes and deaf ears to this conflict are complicit in the injustices and abuses that I am protesting against but don't take my word for it take the word of Rev. Dr. Laurel Hallman and Rev. Peter Morales as published in The Salt Lake Tribune just a few days ago. . .

"We know speech aimed at provoking violence and oppression is pervasive. Words have consequences. . . We cannot allow this cancer to go unchallenged. To remain silent is to be complicit in the destruction of our society."

I am still waiting for U*Us to responsibly challenge the intolerant and abusive hate speech that I have been subjected to by Rev. Ray Drennan and other U*Us and to provide genuine and tangible restorative justice to me and all other people who have been abused, oppressed and victimized by U*U clergy in one way or another.

:In short ... all your talk about "injustices, abuses and hypocrisy" is rooted in your own personal grudge.

Not really. I have became aware of various other U*U injustices and abuses over the years and these injustices and abuses concern me as well. They should concern other U*Us and some U*Us do express some concern for some if these other injustices and abuses but all too often U*Us want to deny, ignore and minimize internal injustices and abuses and do little or nothing to redress them in accordance with U*U principles and ideals.

:For seventeen years!

Thirteen or so less than lucky years for U*Us actually. Thirteen years of egregious institutional stonewalling and denial on the part of U*Us. Thirteen years of unjust punitive actions taken against me in deeply misguided attempts to silence me rather than responsibly take steps to redress my grievances. U*Us should be utterly ashamed of irresponsibly dragging this conflict out for more than thirteen years now but apparently U*Us have no shame. . . I actually considered making a picket sign slogan that said -

A "CHURCH" THAT HAS NO SHAME

but decided against doing so since I figured that shamefully shameless U*Us would take it as a compliment. . .

Sunday, June 21, 2009 11:38:00 pm  
Blogger Robin Edgar said...

:And to top it all off? You hijack other people's discussions, call people names like "boneheadedly stupid" and "stinky vestments", and try to claim that your behavior is "their" fault.

Well to be quite accurate I did not in fact "name-call" Joel Monka "boneheadedly stupid". I described particular *thoughts* of Joel Monka as "Boneheadedly Stupid, Callously Dismissive, And Really Quite Thoughtless *Thoughts*". For the record Joel Monka has engaged in name-calling of me and other people that is far worse than that. AFAIAC Joel Monka's thoughts, as expressed in his blog post that inspired this response to it, can be quite justifiably described as being Boneheadedly Stupid, Callously Dismissive, And Really Quite Thoughtless Thoughts.

As for Rev. StinkyVestments aka Rev. Tim Jensen that quite humorous name-calling is a direct response to his insulting and defamatory suggestion that I am a "skunk". If Rev. Dr. Timnothy Jensen doesn't want to go around wearing virtual stinky vestments he should not get into pissing matches with skunks let alone start one by publicly insulting me. . .

:Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

Right.

:Guess what? When people are not complaining about your outrageous behavior, they are either pitying you or laughing at you.

Guess what oh so anonymous one? When people are not complaining about the outrageous behavior of U*Us, including outrageously hypocritical U*U clergy, they are either pitying U*Us or laughing at U*Us. You have no idea how many laughs The Emerson Avenger blog has generated and most people aren't laughing at me they are laughing *with* me. . . It is high time U*Us woke up and smelled the Bridgehead coffee.

:Go do all that searching you're so fond of doing, and read what people are really saying about you.

Don't worry I do. Here is a recent example -

I'm not surprised at the reactions you've been getting here in your comments, predominantly from the knuckle-dragger set - zhou1992's account is defunct, mercifully.
Basically, you're facing the same problem Gnostics down through the ages have always faced, Robin: ostracism by an entrenched, dogmatic theocracy. Welcome to the ranks, sir. I admire your resolve and am, quite honestly, appalled at the monumentally STUPID way Juan Vera has handled this´╗┐ whole business - if he's the minister, then that church must be comprised largely of imbeciles. I can think of a THOUSAND better ways this whole thing could have been handled. I've emailed the 'social justice' division of the UU church, cc'ed it to your yahoo address, but I don't expect much in the way of a reply. Clearly, the UU church is misnamed - Unitarian SECTARIAN church would be far more accurate, in this case. Best of luck...be the devil in their details! ---TME

Maybe you and other U*Us would like to read the email this person sent to the Unitarian Church of Montreal and the UUA. You will probably get the chance in the coming days since I think it is worthwhile posting here verbatim and I have already obtained this person's permission to do so. Believe me I hear far more validation of my legitimate grievances and highly justified public protests from people of intelligence and conscience than than the Boneheadedly Stupid, Callously Dismissive, And Really Quite Thoughtless Thoughts of what TME calls "the knuckle-dragger set". BTW Welcome to the club.

:Given all of that, I'd reckon that any changes in UU behavior occurred in spite of your actions, not because of it.

Don't be so sure of that. I have heard it through the grapevine that my ongoing protest has had a positive influence but, needless to say, neither the UUA or Unitarian Church of Montreal care to acknowledge that fact. At least not yet. . . I hold out some hope that the next President of the UUA may finally do what is necessary to resolve this conflict and responsibly address some of the other U*U injustices and abuses that concern me. Time will tell. . .

Sunday, June 21, 2009 11:38:00 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"oh so anonymous one"
"oh so anonymous one"
"oh so anonymous one"
"oh so anonymous one"
"oh so anonymous one"

What is this thing of repeating the same phraseology over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and ...

As for "hearing through the grapevine" that your repetitive rants are actually having an impact ... show me proof. You're so fond of embedding links to your own blog and blog comments, why not show some actual independent evidence.

BTW it's not just the same phrasing you repeat. It's the same song. The same seventeen year long song, repeating the same gripes, insults, distortions and self-righteous assertions that you need not be accountable for your own behavior because "they started it, Mommy."

The reason more and more people block you and won't allow your comments is because your own language so frequently lapses into the self-righteous and abusive. Even to those who start supporting you, only to have you turn on them. So which message are you trying to send, then? Sounds like: DO EVERTHING ROBIN EDGAR WANTS, OR FEEL HIS WRATH. Now that may not be the message you're trying to convey, but then again understanding that would seem much to expect from soneone who constantly tries to excuse his own obnoxious behavior.

And I don't expect you to learn from this. Hopefully, anyone who reads my responses to your posts will read them, do their homework, and decide to move on. Something you seem totally unable to do.

Monday, June 22, 2009 12:23:00 am  
Blogger Robin Edgar said...

How's this very public validation of my concerns by a respected Humanist U*U minister just for starters?

I wouldn't need to endlessly repeat "the same song" if U*Us actually responded to the lament that I am singing in a manner that actually honored and upheld the purported principles and purposes and other claimed ideals of U*Uism rather than repeatedly and shamefully consistently making a total mockery of them. . . I will continue to sing my song until U*Us respond to it in an appropriate manner. . .

:The same seventeen year long song, repeating the same gripes, insults, distortions and self-righteous assertions that you need not be accountable for your own behavior because "they started it, Mommy."

What is 2009 minus 1995 or 1996? Thirteen or fourteen years not 17. As I said, I take personal responsibility for my own words and actions most of which are highly justified and founded on well documented truths. Quite regrettably outrageously hypocritical U*Us seem to be chronically unready, obstinately unwilling and pathologically to accept responsibility for their highly questionable words and actions which are often falsehoods and lies. I am obliged to repeat the same gripes because U*Us have yet to responsibly redress those gripes in a manner that even remotely resembles justice, equity and compassion in human relations. I might add that the deeply misguided, to say nothing of outrageously hypocritical, attempts by U*Us to censor and suppress or otherwise silence my legitimate criticism do nothing to persuade me to be quiet. Au contraire. . . There are few if any serious distortions in what I am saying, certainly nothing to compare with the quite egregious distortions and outright lies that U*Us, including U*U clergy and UUA leaders, quite regularly engage in. I mean who would have thought that it was *really* within the appropriate guidelines for Rev. Ray Drennan to intolerantly and abusively, indeed falsely and almost certainly maliciously, label Creation Day as a cult? There are two gross distortions for you right there and there are a lot more where that came from. . .

:The reason more and more people block you and won't allow your comments is because your own language so frequently lapses into the self-righteous and abusive.

ROTFLMU*UO! For starters fewer and fewer people are blocking me. Who are all these people blocking me? Do tell. . . My language is usually only abusive in response to U*Us who are abusive themselves. This is knowing, willful and calculated and thus by no means "lapses".

:Even to those who start supporting you, only to have you turn on them.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. . . I usually only turn on people who say or do something that warrants me turning on them. Usually they turn on me before I return the favor.

Monday, June 22, 2009 1:20:00 am  
Blogger Robin Edgar said...

:So which message are you trying to send, then? Sounds like: DO EVERTHING ROBIN EDGAR WANTS, OR FEEL HIS WRATH.

How about practice what you preach aka genuinely honor and uphold U*U principles and ideals or feel the wrath of the dreaded Emerson Avenger. I think that is a lot closer to the truth. Here's the short version -

Don't be a big fat U*U asshole or you risk having your ass handed to you on a platter by The Emerson Avenger. I seem to recall rather to many U*Us effectively telling me -

DO EVERYTHING WE WANT, INCLUDING ACCEPT OUR INTOLERANCE, INSULTS, AND ABUSE OR GET THE HELL OUT OF OUR CHURCH. . .

:again understanding that would seem much to expect from someone who constantly tries to excuse his own obnoxious behavior.

Me? Excuse my own obnoxious behavior? ROTFLMU*UO! I am not "excusing" it, I am just saying that it is the proverbial whirlwind that U*Us reap from the obnoxious and outright abusive wind that they sow. . . More often than not my alleged "obnoxious" or "image tarnishing words" are actually the obnoxious and abusive words of U*Us, especially U*U clergy and UUA officials. . . fed right back to them with my U*U World-famous "Eat Your Words Diet". . .

:And I don't expect you to learn from this. Hopefully, anyone who reads my responses to your posts will read them, do their homework, and decide to move on. Something you seem totally unable to do.

Nope just totally unwilling to do. I will not move on until U*U responsibly acknowledge the injustices, abuses and hypocrisy that they are clearly and unequivocally directly responsible for perpetrating or indirectly responsible for perpetuating for well over a decade now. . . I will not "move on" until I and other people who have been insulted, abused and otherwise victimized by U*Us actually receive some of that "restorative justice for all" that the UUA insincerely (if not outright fraudulently) talks about but refuses to actually provide to those who actually deserve some justice, equity, and compassion. . .

Hasta la vista oh so cowardly one.

Monday, June 22, 2009 1:20:00 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The question is not whether UUs have failings. The question is how best to reposnd to it.

Your answer seems to be to find as many possible reasons to complain, then write angry screeds about it.

Here are some examples of how I deal with it:

* The leadership of a UU congregation decided to deal with the number and length of candles of joy and concern, because it was dragging out the time for worship, by adding a book for "silent candles" and repeatedly asking congregants to limit their time. I raised the question of why this was happening so often, proposed that it was due to lack of pastoral care, and suggested remedies. A few people responded quite coldly and negatively, so I wrote a letter of resignation reiterating my points. Six months later, I heard from a friend in the congregation that they had indeed implemented many of the changes, as well as changes in how the leadership communicated with members.

* On three occasions, I've found UU publications which contained outdated and/or incomplete information. I would send a proposed revision to the appropriate publishing body. They have been incorporated in new editions in two occasions, while the third is still under editorial review.

* In another organization (not UU) I worked on a code of ethical conduct and adjudication procedure. Many years later, they are still being used to deal with complaints of unethical conduct.

These are examples of constructive ways of dealing with problems. They are worlds apart from your tactics.

You talk about UUs "genuinely upholding [our] principles" but it seems to me you interpret that as a sense of entitlement - not just that we should listen to you, but that we are somehow obligated to do what you want (ie, hold a celebration every time there is an eclipse). The minister who first responded to your suggestion may not have responded in a constructive or respectful way, but you have done little better.

Winston Churchill once said that democracy was the worst form of government except for all the others. I daresay that many UUs would say much the same about our faith and movement. You seem to equate us -- ALL of us -- with the worst examples of religion, and not realize how your own antics have contributed to them.

Sorry, Robin, but I don't see your work as constructive. I see others doing far more positive things in response to the problems others deal with. But to stake claim to being the one who reforms UUism by constantly attacking and insulting others - then claiming it as "justice" for someone else attacking and insulting you - is enormous hubris indeed.

Go ahead, rant away. You're only digging yourself deeper into your hole. More pitifully, you actually seem to believe that you'll find treasure while you hit other people with your mud and blame them for being hit.

Monday, June 22, 2009 7:48:00 am  
Blogger Robin Edgar said...

:The question is not whether UUs have failings. The question is how best to reposnd to it.

I have repeatedly asked U*Us to implement viable conflict resolution procedures in this matter but they have always failed or refused to do so. I have repeatedly urged U*Us to enter into dialogue with me towards the end of resolving this conflict. They have not only obstinately refused to do so but have gone to extreme lengths to try to silence me. In fact when I suggested that Rev. Diane Rollert should enter into dialogue with me she not only refused to do so but sought a restraining order which would prevent any possibility of dialogue for a full year. . .

:Your answer seems to be to find as many possible reasons to complain, then write angry screeds about it.

I have actually limited my complaints to important stuff. If I was in the habit of trying to find as many possible reasons to complain I would be complaining about Joys and Concerns candles wouldn't I? There is no comparison between the important issues that I am complaining about and trivialities such as "the number and length of candles of joy and concern." I raise questions like why anti-religious intolerance and bigotry and insulting and abusive behavior by U*U ministers is happening so often. . . I have suggested various remedies but U*Us have largely ignored my suggestions. Heck the UUA even ignores and fails to implement the well thought out recommendations of people like U*Us For Right Relations, Rev. Fred Muir, and other concerned U*Us who have made recommendations for better handling of clergy misconduct complaints. . .

For the record I have pointed out various flaws errors in online UU publications which contained outdated and/or incomplete information and these errors have been corrected.

I will happily work on a code of ethical conduct and adjudication procedure etc. once U*Us provide that opportunity after resolving this dispute. I have made valid recommendations for improved procedures in the past and am ready, willing and able to do so now but will only do so *after* the UUA and Unitarian Church of Montreal move towards settlement of this conflict.

:These are examples of constructive ways of dealing with problems. They are worlds apart from your tactics.

I have been there and done that in the past but U*Us usually ignored or rejected my constructive suggestions. My current tactics reflect the fact that the UUA allows U*U ministers to behave in ways that are not only obnoxious but outright intolerant and abusive. As long as it is "within the appropriate guidelines" for U*U clergy to insult and defame people, or otherwise abuse and victimize people, I see no reason why I should be particularly less obnoxious than U*U clergy when exposing and denouncing U*U injustices, abuses, and hypocrisy. . .

:You talk about UUs "genuinely upholding [our] principles" but it seems to me you interpret that as a sense of entitlement - not just that we should listen to you, but that we are somehow obligated to do what you want (ie, hold a celebration every time there is an eclipse).

Wrong. Show me where there is the slightest evidence that I have suggested that U*Us are obligated to hold a celebration every time there is an eclipse. There is none. What U*Us are obligated to do, according to the "covenants" of the Seven Principles, is to hold intolerant and abusive U*U clergy who falsely and maliciously slander that inter-religious event as a "cult", or otherwise insult and abuse people, accountable for their intolerant and abusive clergy misconduct, something that U*Us have obstinately refused to do for over thirteen years now. . .

Monday, June 22, 2009 1:36:00 pm  
Blogger Robin Edgar said...

:The minister who first responded to your suggestion may not have responded in a constructive or respectful way, but you have done little better.

Wrong. I have tried to respond in constructive ways on numerous occasions but U*Us have rejected all those efforts and have even punished me for making them. A fairly recent example of U*U rejection of my constructive efforts is Rev. Diane Rollert's deeply misguided decision to seek a restraining order against me in response to my very reasonable constructive suggestion that she should enter into dialogue with me towards the end of settling this conflict.

:You seem to equate us -- ALL of us -- with the worst examples of religion, and not realize how your own antics have contributed to them.

Sorry but I do not paint ALL U*Us with the same brush as you suggest hear. This blog post is a perfect example of me narrowing my criticism down to one individual U*U. In fact it is the highly questionable "antics" of U*Us, including obnoxious and abusive U*U clergy that have contributed to my current "antics". You can't have it both ways. . .

:Sorry, Robin, but I don't see your work as constructive.

That's your problem. Plenty of other people do see my work as constructive. It would be a lot more constructive if U*Us responded positively to my constructive suggestions rather than obstinately ignoring them, dismissing them, and even punishing me for making them. . . Don't talk to me enormous hubris. U*Us are far more guilty of hubris than I am. In fact it is the overbearing pride, presumption, and stunning arrogance of U*Us, including U*U clergy and top-level UUA leaders, that is one of the proverbial root causes of not only the origin of this conflict but the fact that it has been dragged out for over thirteen years now. It is the pathological aversion to responsible acknowledgment of error and wrongdoing on the part of U*Us that has caused this conflict to last so long. The day that U*Us in positions of responsibility responsibly acknowledge the various injustices, abuses and hypocrisy that U*Us are clearly and unequivocally guilty of perpetrating and/or perpetuating is the day this conflict moves towards a genuinely just and equitable conclusion. I am still waiting for that day to come. . . With any luck the next President of the UUA will have the human decency and good sense to make that day come before the end of this year. If they fail or refuse to do so this conflict will continue indefinitely. . .

:Go ahead, rant away. You're only digging yourself deeper into your hole.

I am not in any hole. If anyone is in a hole it is the U*U religious community which has dug a gigantic hole for itself over the last decade or two.

Monday, June 22, 2009 1:37:00 pm  
Blogger Robin Edgar said...

:More pitifully, you actually seem to believe that you'll find treasure while you hit other people with your mud and blame them for being hit.

Actually, I usually hit outrageously hypocritical U*Us with their own mud that they sling at other people as I have already pointed out to you. . . U*Us pretended for years that it was perfectly acceptable for Rev. Ray Drennan and other intolerant and abusive U*Us to slander Creation Day as a "cult" but when I protested against that very intolerant and indeed outright bigoted insulting and defamatory language by creating and displaying a picket sign slogan that says -

CULT IS A FOUR LETTER WORD

all of a sudden I was guilty of tarnishing the image of the Unitarian Church of Montreal with what some outrageously U*Us described as "hate speech" and even "terrorism". This act of perfectly legitimate peaceful public protest against the false and malicious use of the word "cult" to label Creation Day warranted permanently expelling me from the Unitarian Church of Montreal for the terrible crime of tarnishing its undeserved public image by going public with my legitimate grievances but for some strange reason Rev. Ray Drennan, Frank Greene, and other leading Montreal U*Us who were guilty of slandering Creation Day as a cult were most welcome to remain as "pillars" of the Unitarian Church of Montreal. Come to think of it *that* outrageous hypocrisy on the part of Montreal Unitarian U*Us is a shining example of the stunning hubris of the U*Us. . .

Monday, June 22, 2009 1:40:00 pm  
Blogger Robin Edgar said...

Typo correction - all of a sudden I was guilty of tarnishing the image of the Unitarian Church of Montreal with what some outrageously *hypocritical* U*Us described as "hate speech" and even "terrorism".

Monday, June 22, 2009 1:44:00 pm  
Blogger Robin Edgar said...

And another typo correction -

Don't talk to me *about* enormous hubris.

Here are a few more examples of truly stunning U*U hubris. . .

"You lack a basic understanding of, and respect for, the procedures of a democratically governed religious community. The minister, having been chosen by that community, is not to be publicly attacked."

Courtesy of former UUA President Rev. Dr. John A* Buehrens. Let's just reword that over-the-top U*U BS a little bit to show up Rev. Dr. John A* Buehrens' overweening pride, superciliousness, and arrogance. . .

You lack a basic understanding of, and respect for, the procedures of a democratically governed country. The President of the U.S.A., having been chosen by that community/country, is not to be publicly criticized/attacked.

AFAIAC It constituted quite stunning hubris on the part of Rev. Diane Miller, director of the UUA's ever so aptly named Ministerial *Fellowship* Committee, to pretend that Rev. Ray Drennan's intolerant and abusive behavior, as described in considerable detail in my initial letter of grievance, "seemed to us to be within the appropriate guidelines of ministerial leadership" and "In my opinion, and that of the Ministerial Fellowship Committee, his comments as quoted by you do not warrant the description of "extremely unprofessional and demeaning" responses." Come to think of it, it was also bone-headedly stupid, callously dismissive, and really quite thoughtless for Rev. Diane Miller to make these highly questionable assertions and commit them to writing in her formal responses to my legitimate complaints.

Monday, June 22, 2009 8:32:00 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Here's what I keep hearing from you:

1) ALL of your complaints are legitimate and important; NO complaints about you are.

2) Any criticism or questioning of your views deserves a lengthy diatribe about the sins of UUs everywhere.

3) UUs are not permitted to insult you, but because they have you assert carte blanche to insult UUs.

In short, variations on the tired old theme of: "They started it, Mommy."

You say that you've advocated constructive conflict resolution procedures. SHOW ME. Show the whole world. Put up a new post with links on the web showing how you've actually advocated specific positive change. Better yet, show one that you yourself have come up with.

Certainly better than repeating the same stereotyped phrasing over and over ... or do you actually believe that mind-numbing repetition actually makes your assertions more true?

Monday, June 22, 2009 9:03:00 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

expose and denounce oh so repetitive one expose and denounce oh so repetitive one
expose and denounce oh so repetitive one injustice abuse hypocrisy oh so repetitive one
injustice abuse hypocrisy oh so repetitive one injustice abuse hypocrisy oh so repetitive one memory hole oh so repetitive one memory hole oh so repetitive one memory hole oh so repetitive one perpetrators and perpetuators oh so repetitive one perpetrators and perpetuators oh so repetitive one perpetrators and perpetuators oh so repetitive one sorry excuse for an apology oh so repetitive one sorry excuse for an apology oh so repetitive one sorry excuse for an apology oh so repetitive one legitimate grievances oh so repetitive one legitimate grievances oh so repetitive one legitimate grievances oh so repetitive one purported principles and purposes oh so repetitive one purported principles and purposes oh so repetitive one purported principles and purposes oh so repetitive one injustice abuse hypocrisy perpetrators and perpetuators expose and denounce sorry excuse for an apology purported principles and purposes legitimate grievances oh so repetitive one injustice abuse hypocrisy perpetrators and perpetuators expose and denounce sorry excuse for an apology purported principles and purposes legitimate grievances oh so repetitive one injustice abuse hypocrisy perpetrators and perpetuators expose and denounce sorry excuse for an apology purported principles and purposes legitimate grievances oh so repetitive one

Monday, June 22, 2009 9:05:00 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

expose and denounce oh so repetitive one expose and denounce oh so repetitive one
expose and denounce oh so repetitive one injustice abuse hypocrisy oh so repetitive one
injustice abuse hypocrisy oh so repetitive one injustice abuse hypocrisy oh so repetitive one memory hole oh so repetitive one memory hole oh so repetitive one memory hole oh so repetitive one perpetrators and perpetuators oh so repetitive one perpetrators and perpetuators oh so repetitive one perpetrators and perpetuators oh so repetitive one sorry excuse for an apology oh so repetitive one sorry excuse for an apology oh so repetitive one sorry excuse for an apology oh so repetitive one legitimate grievances oh so repetitive one legitimate grievances oh so repetitive one legitimate grievances oh so repetitive one purported principles and purposes oh so repetitive one purported principles and purposes oh so repetitive one purported principles and purposes oh so repetitive one injustice abuse hypocrisy perpetrators and perpetuators expose and denounce sorry excuse for an apology purported principles and purposes legitimate grievances oh so repetitive one injustice abuse hypocrisy perpetrators and perpetuators expose and denounce sorry excuse for an apology purported principles and purposes legitimate grievances oh so repetitive one injustice abuse hypocrisy perpetrators and perpetuators expose and denounce sorry excuse for an apology purported principles and purposes legitimate grievances oh so repetitive one

Monday, June 22, 2009 9:06:00 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

expose and denounce oh so repetitive one expose and denounce oh so repetitive one
expose and denounce oh so repetitive one injustice abuse hypocrisy oh so repetitive one
injustice abuse hypocrisy oh so repetitive one injustice abuse hypocrisy oh so repetitive one memory hole oh so repetitive one memory hole oh so repetitive one memory hole oh so repetitive one perpetrators and perpetuators oh so repetitive one perpetrators and perpetuators oh so repetitive one perpetrators and perpetuators oh so repetitive one sorry excuse for an apology oh so repetitive one sorry excuse for an apology oh so repetitive one sorry excuse for an apology oh so repetitive one legitimate grievances oh so repetitive one legitimate grievances oh so repetitive one legitimate grievances oh so repetitive one purported principles and purposes oh so repetitive one purported principles and purposes oh so repetitive one purported principles and purposes oh so repetitive one injustice abuse hypocrisy perpetrators and perpetuators expose and denounce sorry excuse for an apology purported principles and purposes legitimate grievances oh so repetitive one injustice abuse hypocrisy perpetrators and perpetuators expose and denounce sorry excuse for an apology purported principles and purposes legitimate grievances oh so repetitive one injustice abuse hypocrisy perpetrators and perpetuators expose and denounce sorry excuse for an apology purported principles and purposes legitimate grievances oh so repetitive one

Monday, June 22, 2009 9:06:00 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

expose and denounce oh so repetitive one expose and denounce oh so repetitive one
expose and denounce oh so repetitive one injustice abuse hypocrisy oh so repetitive one
injustice abuse hypocrisy oh so repetitive one injustice abuse hypocrisy oh so repetitive one memory hole oh so repetitive one memory hole oh so repetitive one memory hole oh so repetitive one perpetrators and perpetuators oh so repetitive one perpetrators and perpetuators oh so repetitive one perpetrators and perpetuators oh so repetitive one sorry excuse for an apology oh so repetitive one sorry excuse for an apology oh so repetitive one sorry excuse for an apology oh so repetitive one legitimate grievances oh so repetitive one legitimate grievances oh so repetitive one legitimate grievances oh so repetitive one purported principles and purposes oh so repetitive one purported principles and purposes oh so repetitive one purported principles and purposes oh so repetitive one injustice abuse hypocrisy perpetrators and perpetuators expose and denounce sorry excuse for an apology purported principles and purposes legitimate grievances oh so repetitive one injustice abuse hypocrisy perpetrators and perpetuators expose and denounce sorry excuse for an apology purported principles and purposes legitimate grievances oh so repetitive one injustice abuse hypocrisy perpetrators and perpetuators expose and denounce sorry excuse for an apology purported principles and purposes legitimate grievances oh so repetitive one

Monday, June 22, 2009 9:07:00 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

expose and denounce oh so repetitive one expose and denounce oh so repetitive one
expose and denounce oh so repetitive one injustice abuse hypocrisy oh so repetitive one
injustice abuse hypocrisy oh so repetitive one injustice abuse hypocrisy oh so repetitive one memory hole oh so repetitive one memory hole oh so repetitive one memory hole oh so repetitive one perpetrators and perpetuators oh so repetitive one perpetrators and perpetuators oh so repetitive one perpetrators and perpetuators oh so repetitive one sorry excuse for an apology oh so repetitive one sorry excuse for an apology oh so repetitive one sorry excuse for an apology oh so repetitive one legitimate grievances oh so repetitive one legitimate grievances oh so repetitive one legitimate grievances oh so repetitive one purported principles and purposes oh so repetitive one purported principles and purposes oh so repetitive one purported principles and purposes oh so repetitive one injustice abuse hypocrisy perpetrators and perpetuators expose and denounce sorry excuse for an apology purported principles and purposes legitimate grievances oh so repetitive one injustice abuse hypocrisy perpetrators and perpetuators expose and denounce sorry excuse for an apology purported principles and purposes legitimate grievances oh so repetitive one injustice abuse hypocrisy perpetrators and perpetuators expose and denounce sorry excuse for an apology purported principles and purposes legitimate grievances oh so repetitive one

Monday, June 22, 2009 9:07:00 pm  
Blogger Robin Edgar said...

I suppose that I could relegate most of the above DIM Thinking SPAM comments to the U*U Hole but since this is not a particularly important thread I think that I will leave simply them here as a monument to the monumental stupidity of this anonymous U*U troll.

The only thing worth responding to is the following -

:You say that you've advocated constructive conflict resolution procedures. SHOW ME. Show the whole world.

I guess you are too lazy to enter into a free and responsible search for the truth and meaning of what I said by running a Google search on "Robin Edgar" and "conflict resolution" eh?

How about -

"I expect the church Board to initiate responsible conflict resolution procedures" Here.

or

"With an appropriate change of attitude on your part I hereby stand ready to continue to communicate with you, to meet with you in person, and to try to collaborate with you in any sincere attempt that you undertake towards arriving at a genuinely just, genuinely equitable, and genuinely compassionate resolution of this conflict in the coming weeks and months. The sooner that you and indeed other leaders of the Unitarian Church of Montreal responsibly open lines of communication with me, rather than willfully ignoring me and outright shunning me, the sooner a just and equitable resolution of this long drawn out conflict may be attained." Here.

or

"Most Board members are clearly responsible for failing to firmly and forthrightly respond to my very serious formal grievances in a genuinely just and equitable manner by instituting fair and reasonable conflict resolution procedures." and "I was saddened but by no means surprised to learn that you have refused to participate in the conflict resolution discussions that were proposed to you by John Inder, the current Vice President of our congregation's Board of Management. While I was more than willing to participate in the meetings that John Inder proposed I did not hold out much hope that you would participate in them and I even said as much to John before he approached you about this." Way back in July of 1997. . .

And that is but a small sampling of how I have repeatedly advocated for constructive conflict resolution procedures in this matter but have had those requests and demands ignored, dismissed, or rejected by Rev. Ray Drennan, the Board of the Unitarian Church of Montreal, and other U*Us in positions of responsibility.

:do you actually believe that mind-numbing repetition actually makes your assertions more true?

Not at all. They cannot be much more true than they already are. . . The only reason that I feel obliged to engage in such "mind-numbing repetition" of my legitkmate grievances is because DIM Thinking U*Us continue to obstinately refuse to respond in a genuinely just, equitable and compassionate manner to my grievances. I would be very happy if I did not have to repeat myself to willfully deaf U*Us who jam their fingers in their ears and whistle or sing loudly when I share what UUA President Bill Sinkford once rightly described as my "obviously deep concerns" and then proceded to do nothing or next to nothing to ensure that my obviously deep concerns were responsibly dealt with by the UUA and Unitarian Church of Montreal. . .

Monday, June 22, 2009 9:56:00 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

First: The reason for the repetitions of your repetitions was to give you a taste of your own medicine. You don't seem to recognize how boringly unimaginative your use of language can get. It only shows how much like a broken record you sound.

You also have failed, yet again, to answer with specifics. You just keep quoting generalities, without showing the exact manner of conflict resolution you say you've called for. I've actually researched and developed such procedures, and seen them meet the test of actual use. You just keep complaining that people are not listening to you or settling your "legitimate grievances" in a satisfactory manner. Satisfactory to whom? What do you want? And pul-leeze don't repeat yet again the same glittering generalities about "justice" -- BE SPECIFIC! Do you want the Montreal church, followed by the UU movement, to celebrate every solar eclipse that comes along? Do you want selected people fired or forced to resign? A radical change in governance? To be "king of the U*U world"?
What will bring this never-ending crusade of yours to an end?

Monday, June 22, 2009 10:53:00 pm  

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